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Karen
Black Belt
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 123
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 Posted: Jul 20, 2007 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| syntheticpanda wrote: | | Quote: | | Concerned people (and I'm not even sure that many exist) should petition vendors directly for change WITHOUT the government stepping in--it's not like we're talking botulism here. Thinking for ourselves and acting in our own interest (which inevitably means making mistakes) is what separates human beings from sheep. |
Amen!
P.S. KFC potato wedges are truly amazing. Mmmmm....
Also (I feel like a huge noobie), what does OT mean? |
Another fan! And for the record, I bought some fries from Popeye's today and have decided that they're trumped by KFC's fine, fine, superfine offering. 
"OT" means "off topic" or "off-topic." |
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wehayley
2nd Degree Black Belt
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 195
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| Posted: Jul 20, 2007 7:44 am Post subject: |
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Oops... any one yet to see this breaking story? Here's the first paragraph:
2 hours ago
BEIJING - Chinese police have arrested a journalist accused of faking an investigative report on buns stuffed with shredded cardboard that made headlines around the world and Beijing Television apologized for airing the footage...
Now, I say someone jumped the gun, but I still have my doubts about a lot of the food coming out of the mainland... |
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Karen
Black Belt
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Jul 20, 2007 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| Ryan wrote: | | Quote: | | Don't we already decide to whom we wish to give our business? |
Yes, but I can assure you I would not give a restaurant my business if they used trans fatty acids if there were alternatives. So, it would be a real convenience if they posted it somewhere where I could see it and I wouldn't be forced to enter the restaurant and inquire. |
Agreed. As long as they weren't compelled to do it. Of course, if they did post and were found to be lying, they could be sued (this happened to McDonald's; it involved tallow, I think).
| Quote: | | Every spectrum, from mainstream scientists to far out radicals condemn trans fatty acids as being completely unhealthy. Unless there is a huge conspiracy trying to trick us all into believing trans fatty acids are just fine and are not unhealthy, I want it posted. |
That's probably at least somewhat true but since you're clearly concerned with health and nutrition and keep up with this stuff, you've probably observed what I (sarcastically) term "The Current Big Thing" phenomenon. The Current Big Thing can be either blessing or bugaboo (if memory serves, sometimes it's alternately perceived as both) and it's often determined through additional research that it wasn't as big a deal as was originally perceived...or the subsequent CBT has knocked it off the charts in a manner similar to Top 40 radio. In addition (learned as the result of having been seriously involved with someone whose entire life was committed to veracity in reporting on health and nutrition), pay very close attention to who funds the studies on which findings are based. You also need to know the background of the control groups involved. I know of a study, funded by wine producers, in which the health of teetotalers is compared unfavorably to that of wine drinkers who were moderate imbibers. What you're not told is that the "teetotalers" are all recovering alcoholics--NOT the healthiest of control subjects. See what I mean? And to reiterate, you observe that no one is mentioning that starch heated with any fat except olive oil produces trans fatty acids because you'd have to eliminate a LOT of very tasty food, many desserts, hash browns, cereals, etc. That leaves a VERY limited menu, especially if you don't eat meat.
| Quote: | | I think having it posted is a very reasonable compromise. I agreed with you that restaurants should be free to use it. Making it easy for me to know what restaurants use it and which don't, I only see as an asset. And if the consumers could care less about hydrogenated oils, then the restaurants have nothing to worry about. |
Again, as long as they're not compelled. And, of course, people are free to boycott the establishments of those who decline. |
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Ryan
Sensei
Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 475
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| Posted: Jul 20, 2007 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And to reiterate, you observe that no one is mentioning that starch heated with any fat except olive oil produces trans fatty acids because you'd have to eliminate a LOT of very tasty food, many desserts, hash browns, cereals, etc. That leaves a VERY limited menu, especially if you don't eat meat. |
I read somewhere that consumers get the vast majority of their hydrogenated oils from hydrogenated oils being used in the actual cooking process. That which occurs naturally (trans fatty acids) pales in comparison and thus is not my concern. |
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Karen
Black Belt
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Jul 20, 2007 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| wehayley wrote: | | Karen Wrote: And they're usually cuter, too! But they tend not to show much talent for independent thought. |
...and people do?
*zing* 
| Quote: | | PS... how do you get those blocks of writing, as in "so & so wrote"? |
Good old pattern recognition!
When you reply to a post after you've hit "quote," you'll notice that those previous quotes are enclosed by code in brackets (I can't display it because it "works"). Just copy what you need and insert it in the right places. For instance, your PS above is framed by "quote" enclosed in brackets and "/quote" in brackets (you'll see what I mean when you hit "quote" to reply). Just play with it and preview before you actually submit. |
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Karen
Black Belt
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Jul 20, 2007 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| Ryan wrote: | | Quote: | | And to reiterate, you observe that no one is mentioning that starch heated with any fat except olive oil produces trans fatty acids because you'd have to eliminate a LOT of very tasty food, many desserts, hash browns, cereals, etc. That leaves a VERY limited menu, especially if you don't eat meat. |
I read somewhere that consumers get the vast majority of their hydrogenated oils from hydrogenated oils being used in the actual cooking process. That which occurs naturally (trans fatty acids) pales in comparison and thus is not my concern. |
That's because the producers of these foods are using hydrogenated fats. My point is that even if a switch is made, TFA's will STILL be produced and consumers will pay more for the privilege of consuming them. And as I mentioned to Chip, sometimes the use of a specific hydrogenated fat in a recipe is used in order to achieve a particular result. Thank you, but I'm not interested in brownies made with canola oil or shortbread made with "healthful" margarine! On the other hand, I still remember with happiness the days when I first observed that Twinkies and Oreos were finally kosher and hence vegetarian... (I ate that whole box of Twinkies in about 1.5 hours--my Twinkee-free stretch had been a long one. That I was disinclined to repeat the experience for quite some time forced me to confront the possibility of encroaching middle age.  )
The sad fact of the matter is that if people were eating more healthfully, this would be a non-issue because with the exception of things like coconuts--fruits, vegetables, and grains don't contain hydrogenated fats. And I sincerely believe that moderate consumption of said fats is fine (although I'm condemning myself as I write to a single Oreo rather than than an entire package). It's when huge amounts of these fats are consumed that problems occur. Eating more intelligently reduces the risk. What scares me is that the nutrition gestapo might soon decide to make THAT decision for us (which, unfortunately, includes me) as well. |
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Chip
Spam/Troll Killer
Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 745
Location: Back in the TeaCave atop Mt. Fuji, purging looters
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| Posted: Jul 20, 2007 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Karen wrote: | | Ryan wrote: | | Quote: | | And to reiterate, you observe that no one is mentioning that starch heated with any fat except olive oil produces trans fatty acids because you'd have to eliminate a LOT of very tasty food, many desserts, hash browns, cereals, etc. That leaves a VERY limited menu, especially if you don't eat meat. |
I read somewhere that consumers get the vast majority of their hydrogenated oils from hydrogenated oils being used in the actual cooking process. That which occurs naturally (trans fatty acids) pales in comparison and thus is not my concern. |
That's because the producers of these foods are using hydrogenated fats. My point is that even if a switch is made, TFA's will STILL be produced and consumers will pay more for the privilege of consuming them. And as I mentioned to Chip, sometimes the use of a specific hydrogenated fat in a recipe is used in order to achieve a particular result. Thank you, but I'm not interested in brownies made with canola oil or shortbread made with "healthful" margarine! On the other hand, I still remember with happiness the days when I first observed that Twinkies and Oreos were finally kosher and hence vegetarian... (I ate that whole box of Twinkies in about 1.5 hours--my Twinkee-free stretch had been a long one. That I was disinclined to repeat the experience for quite some time forced me to confront the possibility of encroaching middle age. )
The sad fact of the matter is that if people were eating more healthfully, this would be a non-issue because with the exception of things like coconuts--fruits, vegetables, and grains don't contain hydrogenated fats. And I sincerely believe that moderate consumption of said fats is fine (although I'm condemning myself as I write to a single Oreo rather than than an entire package). It's when huge amounts of these fats are consumed that problems occur. Eating more intelligently reduces the risk. What scares me is that the nutrition gestapo might soon decide to make THAT decision for us (which, unfortunately, includes me) as well. |
Hmmm, nutrition gestapo??? A little heavy handed don't you think? I think we live in a very free country, full of free choices, yet with a moderate level of protection that I can appreciate. I actually wish more was being done to protect Americans.
Yes, after more than 10 years of fighting the food industry lobbiests, we finally have the benefit of trans fat information on labeling, though that was so carefully crafted so serving sizes could be manipulated in order to give the appearence of "0 grams trans fat." When it does have trans fat, just less than .5 grams.
This same food industry, are we to blindly trust them? Do you trust Phillip Morris, a conglomerate that has directly and indirectly killed more people, lieing to the whole world about the hazards of smoking, than Nazi Germany and their Gestapo? PM owns Kraft, Nabisco, Post, and more food companies than I have tea tins (which is a lot). How can I trust a company that so dominates the food industry, while they have so little regard for life that they continue to sell their tobacco to not only the USA, but now they have the whole world to lie to.
Yet I know they are only one company, there are many thousands of businesses in the food industry. I only offer Phillip Morris as an example.
I do not have the ultimate solution to this issue, but it is something I am quite ummm, passionate about. I don't expect everyone to embrace this cause, and I respect an individuals choice to eat as they please. But I also feel a level of protection should be afforded those who choose to avoid trans fat, just like those who choose to avoid smoking and 2nd hand smoke.
Perhaps a restuarant could receive a special certification if they comply with certain guidelines. The certification could be a part of their marketing and signage. If a restuarant chooses not to participate, fine, but at least consumers could make educated decisions and there would be a level of accountability.
Yes, many fats begin to convert to trans fat in cooking, but hydrogenated oil has a huge head start...and I assume even more of it converts to trans fat in cooking also. |
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Kevangogh
Forum God
Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 916
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Jul 20, 2007 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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syntheticpanda
2nd Degree Black Belt
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 198
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| Posted: Jul 20, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Uh oh, someone said gestapo and nazi... isn't there a rule about that in forums? 
Anyway, I'm of the camp that believes people are responsible for their stupid decisions. Advertisements can play a role in influencing us to purchase/consume a particular product, but it is ultimately the individual's responsibility to make his/her own decisions.
I wouldn't say I'm a social Darwinist, but I have a problem with my rights being taken away because of idiots who need laws to keep them from killing themselves.
| Quote: | | Perhaps a restuarant could receive a special certification if they comply with certain guidelines. The certification could be a part of their marketing and signage. If a restuarant chooses not to participate, fine, but at least consumers could make educated decisions and there would be a level of accountability. |
I would absolutely support this kind of program, mostly because it effects change without legislation. It's too bad most government officials never think of things like this... 
(These smileys are growing on me...  ) |
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wehayley
2nd Degree Black Belt
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 195
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| Posted: Jul 20, 2007 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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One of the world's most revered texts, the "Tao Te Ching" (The Way and It's Power/Virtue which, by the way, has been translated more than any book with the lone exception of the Holy Bible), advises those in charge to create fewer rules. The idea being that: 1. people are generally good at heart and will most often do the right thing; and 2. there will be fewer rules to break and therefore less crime. Weird as it may sound, there is a measure of truth to this.
At the same time, I much prefer a world where we more clearly know who has to stop at an intersection, what you can carry onto an airplane, and what can or cannot be put into foodstuff with or without disclosure.
When much younger, and from a philosophical standpoint, even now, I would argue against the government saying what hallucinogens I can or cannot partake of. Still, I don't want to be exposed to DDT in my tea, second-hand smoke, or the stench that may arise from a ventless bathroom while trying to eat breakfast at the corner shop.
Meanwhile, the government regulations on what is or is not organic cabbage has grown to near one-thousand pages in length, roughly five times as many pages as the Gettysberg Address has words.
We are riding the horns of a dilemma, stuck in a paradoxical world of yin and yang, and there are no clear and easy answers... |
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Karen
Black Belt
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Jul 20, 2007 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| admin wrote: | |
Better hope that popcorn doesn't contain trans fats... |
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Pragmatica
Uh, Can I Add Sugar?
Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Posts: 8
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Jul 21, 2007 3:30 am Post subject: Re: Cold tea |
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| Pragmatica wrote: | In the summer time I always drink cold or room temperature green tea because I find hot tea overheats me at the office since it gets warm in there as the day wears on. I let it sit for around half an hour before drinking. I'm curious if there's any difference in the nutrient and antioxidant content of cold/lukewarm/hot tea. Is half an hour long enough to let it sit or should I let cold or lukewarm tea soak for much longer than that since things dissolve more slowly in cooler temperatures? What is the ideal amount of time to steep cold or lukewarm tea to ensure I get all the health benefits?
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I'm still hoping for an answer to this if someone has a minute.
As for the trans fat debate, I've seen this popular debate on other forums and neither side ends up convinced as both present valid points, so it ends up being essentially a battle of personal preference.
I have never seen a single restaurant with a placard with info about trans fats or calories in their dishes, or the same info somewhere on their menu. Sometimes there's a symbol saying it's a lower fat option but what use is that if it's 30 grams of fat versus 50? It's still too much fat.
Letting their customers know the damage they are doing to themselves isn't high on the priority list of restaurants, just like cigarette companies had to be forced to put the dangers of their products on the packages. As a result, something needs to be legislated to force these restaurants to provide the information so people really know what they are consuming when they eat there. In many cases it's like eating a day or two's worth of calories and fat in one sitting, regardless of whether it's trans fat or not.
It has always puzzled me that food purchased in grocery stores now has all the nutritional info and yet restaurants don't have to provide a single thing in plain view. It's very inconsistent and if that information was provided (as it should have been all along) perhaps the trans fat ban would have never happened in the first place because of the outrage and consumer reaction to those numbers would have forced some restaurants to change for the better long ago.
As for the ban, like smoking bans, I'm for it personally as health is my priority, not whether a muffin has the perfect texture or not. Seeing as restaurants don't provide the info for me to make healthy eating decisions, I'd much rather see a ban of the worst substances than nothing done at all. In the mean time I just avoid restaurants 90% of the time as I already know that for the most part they offer over-oiled, over-fatted unhealthy fare and ridiculously large serving sizes (at least in the West). Even when I order what seems to be healthier fare, they always use *huge* amounts of butter, oils, and salt compared to what I'd prepare at home for the exact same dish. I want to know what the calorie, sodium, and fat hit is of all the extra crap and sauces, especially if they promote the dish as the ever-vague and misleading 'lighter/healthy choice' on their menu.
I'll echo this sentiment:
| Quote: | At the same time, I much prefer a world where we more clearly know who has to stop at an intersection, what you can carry onto an airplane, and what can or cannot be put into foodstuff with or without disclosure.
I don't want to be exposed to DDT in my tea, second-hand smoke, or the stench that may arise from a ventless bathroom while trying to eat breakfast at the corner shop. |
Last edited by Pragmatica on Jul 21, 2007 3:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Chip
Spam/Troll Killer
Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 745
Location: Back in the TeaCave atop Mt. Fuji, purging looters
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| Posted: Jul 21, 2007 3:49 am Post subject: Re: Cold tea |
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| Pragmatica wrote: | | Pragmatica wrote: | In the summer time I always drink cold or room temperature green tea because I find hot tea overheats me at the office since it gets warm in there as the day wears on. I let it sit for around half an hour before drinking. I'm curious if there's any difference in the nutrient and antioxidant content of cold/lukewarm/hot tea. Is half an hour long enough to let it sit or should I let cold or lukewarm tea soak for much longer than that since things dissolve more slowly in cooler temperatures? What is the ideal amount of time to steep cold or lukewarm tea to ensure I get all the health benefits?
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I'm still hoping for an answer to this if someone has a minute.
As for the trans fat debate, I've seen this popular debate on other forums and neither side ends up convinced as both present valid points, so it ends up being essentially a battle of personal preference.
I have never seen a single restaurant with a placard with info about trans fats or calories in their dishes, or the same info somewhere on their menu. Sometimes there's a symbol saying it's a lower fat option but what use is that if it's 30 grams of fat versus 50? It's still too much fat.
Letting their customers know the damage they are doing to themselves isn't high on the priority list of restaurants, just like cigarette companies had to be forced to put the dangers of their products on the packages. As a result, something needs to be legislated to force these restaurants to provide the information so people really know what they are consuming when they eat there. In many cases it's like eating a day or two's worth of calories and fat in one sitting, regardless of whether it's trans fat or not.
It has always puzzled me that food purchased in grocery stores now has all the nutritional info and yet restaurants don't have to provide a single thing in plain view. It's very inconsistent and if that information was provided (as it should have been all along) perhaps the trans fat ban would have never happened in the first place because of the outrage and consumer reaction to those numbers would have forced some restaurants to change for the better long ago.
As for the ban, like smoking bans, I'm for it personally as health is my priority, not whether a muffin has the perfect texture or not. Seeing as restaurants don't provide the info for me to make healthy eating decisions, I'd much rather see a ban of the worst substances than nothing done at all.
I'll echo this sentiment:
| Quote: | At the same time, I much prefer a world where we more clearly know who has to stop at an intersection, what you can carry onto an airplane, and what can or cannot be put into foodstuff with or without disclosure.
I don't want to be exposed to DDT in my tea, second-hand smoke, or the stench that may arise from a ventless bathroom while trying to eat breakfast at the corner shop. |
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Hi Pragmatica and welcome to the forum.
I sense no one answered your original question because anything I have heard has been inconclusive or contradicted. Does hot water bring the antioxidents out of the leaf more effectively, I have to think probably, but perhaps a longer brew time would be just as effective.
It is an interesting parallel, tobacco and trans fat/hydrogenated oil.
Years ago, the government had to force tobacco companies to put warnings on their packaging.
Today, it took over ten years for the government to force food companies (many of whom are owned by tobacco conglomerates) to place trans fat info on labels.
This /connection/coinidence is startling to me...and very revealing. It shows me that there do need to be laws and government presense or there would be food anarchy.
The best part of the labeling today is that finally there is an increase in awareness of the potential dangers of trans fat.
I think consumers have a right to know what they are eating where ever that may be within reason. |
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wehayley
2nd Degree Black Belt
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 195
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| Posted: Jul 21, 2007 3:51 am Post subject: |
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I think it's reasonable to assume a cold brewed tea, or even one brewed with room temperature water will not have the same nutritional benefit as a hot brew. When making a tincture of almost any sort, there was to be some sort of alchemical stimulus. In the case of tea, it's hot water. Cold water just doesn't cause as many particules to get "excited."
Notice how odors are more prevalent at higher temperatures - take something out of the oven and the smell immediately fills the room. Take the same item out of the fridge and the odor will be much less noticable.
The same principle applies when making multiple infusions. As the number increases, you generally have to use hotter water, for a longer time, to get anywhere near the taste of the first or second cup.
The particles need to be excited in order to release their bounty... |
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syntheticpanda
2nd Degree Black Belt
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 198
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| Posted: Jul 21, 2007 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As for the ban, like smoking bans, I'm for it personally as health is my priority, not whether a muffin has the perfect texture or not. Seeing as restaurants don't provide the info for me to make healthy eating decisions, I'd much rather see a ban of the worst substances than nothing done at all. |
I don't see why the first move has to be a ban. Posted signs or placards would be effective in warning people what they are eating, and it doesn't take away our right to enjoy delicious, unhealthy food in a restaurant because of a minor inconvenience to some. There could always be legal repercussions if the restaurants didn't comply. Like Karen said earlier, this isn't botulism here. |
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